Can I Shoot Smokeless out of my Thompson?
Alright Savage 10ML-II Gurus....here is a question.
Why can the Savage shoot smokeless powder but my Thompson Center Encore cannot?
Is the design limitation the steel strength of the receiver area or a limitation of the breech plug in my Encore?
Thanks,
Scott Kirsch, Cloverdale, IN
Hello Scott,
I'm glad you have asked-- a lot of people don't, but are curious nevertheless. I know you are an experienced shooter and hunter, and if you are asking-- well, there are a lot of others folks that would appreciate a detailed response as well. This question is best answered by Thompson themselves, of course, who set the parameters for the proper use of their product. However, rather than avoid or duck the question I'll offer my opinion, which is mine alone-- Savage Arms does not discuss what other guns may or may not do, only their own. So, here goes:
The Thompson breechplug is insufficient for Savage loads, and the barrel "may be heat treated" or may not be. Thompson has done no testing with smokeless, and of course warns VERY loudly against its use.
In the Savage, you don't have a barrel thrusting against only the action (as in any break action)-- you have two one-piece stock pillars AND a fat, wide recoil lug in front of the action to unitize the rifle.
The Savage was designed for smokeless from the start, and has withstood 129,000 PSI in torture testing. The Savage is designed and built with an EXCESS of a 300% safety factor.
Savage barrels are 100% proof-tested before shipping to SAAMI centerfire standards before shipping, every single 10ML-II sees a proof load, then gets an inspection, and then is function fired after that.
In the case of Encore blackpowder barrels, the first time that barrel sees pressure is when you pull the trigger. Not a good time to experiment at all. In fact, unsmart.
The Savage has two large, quite generous gas vents in the sides of the barrel. It is part of Savage's redundant safety system-- which would direct gas away from the shooter's face if anything got through the breechplug. It never has, to my knowledge, but in an Encore-- gas has no where to go.
Can you imagine shooting a cleaning rod out of a .30-06 or a shotgun? Well, customers have shot ramrods out of their Savage 10ML-II's-- in fact, FIVE of my own customers have. Complete, brutal negligence on the part of the shooter! BUT, no Savage shooter has ever been injured by this horrible misuse-- the 10ML-II has saved the skinny butts of many "ramrod shooters" again and again.
So, you have a barreled action proven to withstand 129,000 PSI though NO Savage allowed load so much as reaches 1/3 of that level.
You have a bolt that holds the primer that cannot be closed if the breechplug is out of battery.
You have the Savage Accu-Trigger that can survive the "jar-off" test, not from a few inches-- but from 20 feet.
It goes on and on-- no gun is idiot-proof, but the 10ML-II is as close to it in frontloader land as modern manufacturing techniques, materials, and design will allow.
The Encore muzzleloader barrel was never, ever designed for smokeless and has "blackpowder or Pyrodex ONLY" stamped right on it. Thompson knows what they are doing. There never has been any confusion as to what T/C barrels are made for, or other makes of muzzleloaders as well. Savage Arms has done their part clearly and well, and has redundantly warned for years: "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SHOOT SMOKELESS POWDER OUT OF ANY OTHER MUZZLELOADER." Thompson / Center Arms and Savage Arms speak with one voice on the matter, it is as clear "as do not use 20 gauge shells in a 12 ga. shotgun." All muzzleloaders are handloaders in the field, and accept the full responsibility of reloading when they decide to handle a muzzleloader.
Savage Arms has always been clear on why the 10ML-II is designed, engineered, and tested for use with their approved smokeless loads. Thompson / Center Arms has always been quite clear that you may not use smokeless powder in their muzzleloaders under any circumstances. A specific, more detailed answer than I am able to provide rightfully can come only from Thompson, of course, not me-- however, they have told me directly in writing in quite clear language that "smokeless in Thompson muzzleloaders is prohibited under any circumstances." For any further factory info, I am compelled to refer you to Thompson directly-- it is the only responsible path.
The Savage was developed for smokeless from its inception some 16 years ago, and now has entered its 6th year of consecutive production with smokeless in mind, in terms of materials, quality, testing, and design.
"Smokeless is what it was born to burn."
© December, 2005 by Randy Wakeman
